A summary of the allegations made by Karen Grissom regarding Judge Snow. (Inconsistencies highlighted in peach; all emphasis added)
When did the alleged event occur:
Karen Grissom to Casey
“Ms. Grissom believed that the date of this encounter was sometime before school started, so likely in July or August 2012.” (Casey Letter [ECF 1115] at 4].)
Karen Grissom to Vogel
“DON VOGEL: When -- do you remember when that occurred?
KAREN GRISSOM: It was last year. I don't know -- I don't remember if it was in the summer or beginning of the summer.”
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 3.)
Don Grissom to Vogel
DON VOGEL: Okay. Do you remember around when this was? I mean, I I don't expect --
DALE GRISSOM: Oh
DON VOGEL: you to be able to give me a date, but can you - -
DALE GRISSOM: I had my knee done on the 12th of April, so it was probably about first part of May, end of April, May, right in there.
(Don Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-7] at 6.)
Scott Grissom to Vogel
Unknown; Transcript not yet available.
Where did the alleged event occur:
Karen Grissom to Casey
“Ms. Grissom advised that on an unknown date in 2012 she and her husband were eating at a Some Burros Mexican food restaurant at Baseline Road and Mill Road in Tempe, Arizona… “(Casey Letter [ECF 1115] at 4].)
Karen Grissom to Vogel
DON VOGEL: Okay. And where did the conversation occur .
KAREN GRISSOM: At Sombrero's Restaurant.
DON VOGEL: And which Sombrero's Restaurant were you at?
KAREN GRISSOM : On Mill Avenue and Baseline.
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 4.)
DON VOGEL: …Um, where were you seated at in the restaurant? I'm pretty familiar with that restaurant.
KAREN GRISSOM: We were over on the south side of the door … at the window .
DON VOGEL: Okay. So when you walk in, there is a tremendous amount of seating to your left, and there is just a few tables off to your -- the right?
KAREN GRISSOM: On the right .
DON VOGEL: right. And you were off to
KAREN GRISSOM: Right next to the window.
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 6.)
Don Grissom to Vogel
DON VOGEL: … Would you remember where you sat [at Sombreros]? …
DALE GRISSOM: When we walked in, we sat at a longer table on the right, and it was the second one in from the window .
DON VOGEL : Okay.
DALE GRISSOM: It is -- well, I guess it is the first window when you go in there on the right.
DON VOGEL: Okay. So the part of the table actually abuts up to the window.
DALE GRISSOM: No. It is the second one back out from the window table.*
DON VOGEL: So it sits in the middle of the floor.
DALE GRISSOM: Yeah.
(Don Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-7] at 7-8.)
*KG said that they sat right next to the window; DG said they didn't.
Scott Grissom to Vogel
Unknown; Transcript not yet available.
How was the alleged exchange initiated?
Karen Grissom to Arpaio (Facebook Message)
“Judge Snow I know his wife and talked with her one day[.] [S]he recognized me from our childhood ….” (Casey Letter [ECF 1115] at 3.)
Karen Grissom to Casey
“A middle-aged woman came into the restaurant with a younger woman (they left a dog outside) and walked up to her and her husband.” “[Grissom] did-not remember the woman's first name, or her maiden name.” (Casey Letter [ECF 1115] at 4 (emphasis in original).)
The woman asked Ms. Grissom if she was "Irene."*… Ms. Grissom said that she was not Irene, that Irene was her younger sister (age 55)…” [T]he woman began to tell Ms. Grissom that she was friends with Irene, that she (the woman) eventually went to BYU, was a teacher, she married a man that was now a federal judge…” (Casey Letter [ECF 1115] at 4.)
*KG told Arpaio that Ms. Snow recognized her (KG) from childhood but told Casey that Ms. Snow thought she was a younger sister.
Karen Grissom to Vogel
DON VOGEL: Okay. Um, what happened?
KAREN GRISSOM: We were just sitting there eating our lunch, and, um, this girl, tall girl comes up. I didn't know who she was,* and she asked, Irene? I says, no, I'm Karen.**
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 6.)
*KG told Arpaio that she knew Ms. Snow, but told Vogel that she didn't know her.
**KG told Arpaio that Ms. Snow "recognized me from our childhood," but told Vogel that Ms. Snow thought she was someone else - i.e., her younger sister.
DON VOGEL : Okay. Um, so she asked if you were Irene, and you were - - that is nothing new, so you immediately knew that --
KAREN GRISSOM : M'hum.
DON VOGEL: somebody was confusing you and your sister . What happened next .
* * *
KAREN GRISSOM: And she and then I asked her who she was, and she said Sheri Smoch -- Snow.*
DON VOGEL: Okay . She said Sheri Smooch . Did she say know, too, or are you just adding that.
KAREN GRISSOM : No. Um, she said Sheri, um, Snow, and I says, well, I don't know you.* And, oh, she said I'm Sheri Smoch. Remember my family.
KAREN GRISSOM : I said, oh, yeah, I remember your dad. He was a railroad man.
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 7-8.)
*KG told Arpaio she knew Ms. Snow, but told Vogel she had to ask who she (Ms. Snow) was because "I don't know you." Additionally, KG told Casey that she couldn't remember Ms. Snow's first name or maiden name but - by the time Vogel interviewed her, she learned both names.
DON VOGEL : …. Um, so she ident- -- she told you her name was Sheri Snow, and then you were kind of puzzled.
And what was her maiden name, again.
DON VOGEL: Do you know how to spell that.
KAREN GRISSOM: S-m-o-c-h or k .
DON VOGEL : Okay. Had you known her growing up .
KAREN GRISSOM: Growing up, yes. We just lived a few blocks away from her.
DON VOGEL : Were you friends, or did you just kind of know each other .
KAREN GRISSOM : We were friends.* I would go over to her mother - - to her house and -- and we would play.
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 9-10.)
*KG told Casey that Ms. Snow told her that Ms. Snow was Irene’s friend. If, in fact, Karen and Ms. Snow were childhood friends, why would Ms. Snow (per KG) explain to Karen that she had been Irene’s friend? And why wouldn’t she remember Ms. Snow’s first name or maiden name? Additionally, what are the chances that she was childhood friends with someone who was about ten years younger than her?
Don Grissom to Vogel
DON VOGEL: Okay . So what, you guys are eating? Is that how it is going? What is
DALE GRISSOM: Yeah.
DON VOGEL: going on?
DALE GRISSOM : I think we were still waiting on our food, and the lady that sat on the table by the window knew Karen's sister, which was Irene.
DON VOGEL: Okay. So she was already seated inside?
(Don Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-7] at 11.)
* KG told Casey that Ms. Snow walked up to her; DG told Vogel that Ms. Snow was already seated inside.
DON VOGEL: Okay . Um, so how did -- how did contact become initiated between these folks.
DALE GRISSOM: Well, she thought my wife was Irene, so she said, Irene.
(Don Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-7] at 11-12.)
DON VOGEL: So was was Mrs . Snow still seated at her table having a conversation with your wife across the aisle.
DALE GRISSOM: No . My wife was standing up, I think, and talking to her.*
(Don Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-7] at 19.)
* KG told Casey that Ms. Snow walked up to her; DG told Vogel that Ms. Snow was already seated inside and KG walked up to her.
Scott Grissom to Vogel
Unknown; Transcript not yet available.
How did Judge Snow’s name allegedly come up?
Karen Grissom to Casey
Ms. Grissom said that … the woman began to tell Ms. Grissom that … she (the woman) eventually went to BYU, was a teacher, she married a man that was now a federal judge, and her husband was ruling on a case involving Sheriff Arpaio. (Casey Letter [ECF 1115] at 4.)
Karen Grissom to Vogel
KAREN GRISSOM : Um, she -- and then I said, well, what do you do? She said, well, I used to be a teacher. I was a teacher. I went to BYU, she said. And I think that is where she said she met her husband, and he is a federal judge .
DON VOGEL : Okay.
KAREN GRISSOM: Snow.
DON VOGEL: Did she say his first name.
KAREN GRISSOM : I don't think so.
DON VOGEL: Okay . Did you know he was a federal judge before that, or did she
KAREN GRISSOM : No.
DON VOGEL: offer that to you.
KAREN GRISSOM: No. She brought that up.
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 10-11.)
Don Grissom to Vogel
DON VOGEL: Okay. So you're -- you're – do you remember, um, how it kind of -- how the conversation got going specifically, what they were talking about, or just that they --
DALE GRISSOM : …And then they -- I don't remember exactly how it got into Joe Arpaio and her husband. …
(Don Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-7] at 13.)
DON VOGEL: Okay. Did you know that Judge Snow was involved in the case? Did you know his name?
DALE GRISSOM: Not really, huh-uh. Not until, actually, I heard that, and then I started getting a little more in it. And then here lately when he -- he was -- him and Judge Snow was kind of at it, I guess you could say . But . . .
DON VOGEL: So when she said that her husband was the judge on the case, it wasn't like you immediately knew, oh, that would be Judge Snow.
DALE GRISSOM : No.
DON VOGEL: Okay.
DALE GRISSOM : I didn't know that until I found out her name.
DON VOGEL: Okay.
DALE GRISSOM : And I think Karen was saying, well, that is Judge Snow's wife or her name was Snow, or something like that. I --
DON VOGEL: Okay.
DALE GRISSOM: I don't remember.
(Don Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-7] at 15.)
Scott Grissom to Vogel
Unknown; Transcript not yet available.
How did the subject of the Arpaio case allegedly come up?
Karen Grissom to Casey
“[A]nd the woman began to tell Ms. Grissom that … she married a man that was now a federal judge, and her husband was ruling on a case involving Sheriff Arpaio. According to Ms. Grissom, the woman volunteered that her husband "wanted to burn the Sheriff because he did not like him."” (Casey Letter [ECF 1115] at 4.)
Karen Grissom to Vogel
DON VOGEL : Okay . What happened next.
KAREN GRISSOM: And, ah and, oh -- and I said , oh, he is the one that is after Joe, the sheriff. Oh, yes, he is.*
DON VOGEL: Now, you said, "after Joe, the sheriff." What did you mean by that.
KAREN GRISSOM : Um, what I meant is, he is the judge on the - - on the on the case that - -
DON VOGEL: Okay.
KAREN GRISSOM : that he had a lawsuit.
DON VOGEL : Okay.
KAREN GRISSOM: I've seen it on T- -- on - -on the news. That is all I knew.
* * *
DON VOGEL: Okay .
KAREN GRISSOM : And , ah -- and then she started, yeah, my husband , um , doesn't like him . He wants him out of the -- out of his office . And he anything he can do to get him out of the office.
DON VOGEL: Okay. Um, how did you respond to that.
KAREN GRISSOM : I didn't respond to anything to it, because I didn't want to voice my opinion about it.
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 10-12.)
*Per this exchange, it was KG who said that Judge Snow was after Arpaio, not Ms. Snow.
DON VOGEL: Um, do you remember anything else that she told you about -- during that conversation about her or her life or her family? Or what else did she offer in the conversation?
KAREN GRISSOM: Just, ah, where she went to school, um, and that she came back here and taught school for a while. And I don't -- and who she was married to. And then I recognized the Snow, and then our conversation came up to Joe Arpaio and what she had said,* he wanted her out -- wanted him out. He didn't like him. And then we changed the subject, and she had to go, because she had a dog outside waiting, and they were going back home. …
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 28.)
*KG told Casey that Ms. Snow told her that Judge Snow was ruling on the Arpaio case. Yet she told Vogel that, upon hearing Judge Snows name, she – Karen Grissom – said “oh, he is the one that is after Joe, the sheriff.”
Don Grissom to Vogel
DON VOGEL: Okay. So you're -- you're – do you remember, um, how it kind of -- how the conversation got going specifically, what they were talking about, or just that they --
DALE GRISSOM : … And then they -- I don't remember exactly how it got into Joe Arpaio and her husband. …
(Don Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-7] at 13.)
Scott Grissom to Vogel
Unknown; Transcript not yet available.
What did Ms. Snow allegedly say about Judge Snow and Arpaio
KG to Arpaio (Facebook Message)
“[S]he [Ms. Snow] told me that her husband hates u and will do anything to get u out of office.” (Casey Letter [ECF 1115] at 3.)
Karen Grissom to Casey
According to Ms. Grissom, the woman volunteered that her husband "wanted to burn the Sheriff because he did not like him." (Casey Letter [ECF 1115] at 4.)
Karen Grissom to Vogel
DON VOGEL : Okay . What happened next .
KAREN GRISSOM: And, ah and, oh -- and I said , oh, he is the one that is after Joe, the sheriff. Oh, yes, he is.
DON VOGEL: Now, you said, "after Joe, the sheriff." What did you mean by that.
KAREN GRISSOM : Um, what I meant is, he is the judge on the - - on the on the case that - -*
DON VOGEL: Okay.
KAREN GRISSOM : that he had a lawsuit .
DON VOGEL : Okay.
KAREN GRISSOM: I've seen it on T- -- on - -on the news. That is all I knew.
* * *
DON VOGEL: Okay .
KAREN GRISSOM : And , ah -- and then she started, yeah, my husband , um , doesn't like him . He wants him out of the -- out of his office . And he anything he can do to get him out of the office.
DON VOGEL: Okay. Um, how did you respond to that.
KAREN GRISSOM : I didn't respond to anything to it, because I didn't want to voice my opinion about it.
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 10-12.)
*Per this exchange, it was KG who said that Judge Snow was after Arpaio, not Ms. Snow.
DON VOGEL: Um, do you remember anything else that she told you about -- during that conversation about her or her life or her family? Or what else did she offer in the conversation?
KAREN GRISSOM: Just, ah, where she went to school, um, and that she came back here and taught school for a while. And I don't -- and who she was married to. And then I recognized the Snow, and then our conversation came up to Joe Arpaio and what she had said, he wanted her out -- wanted him out. He didn't like him. And then we changed the subject…
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 28.)
*Note that each time KG attempts to repeat what Ms. Snow allegedly says, the words change - rather significantly and, generally, the alleged statements get milder as she restates the alleged comments.
Don Grissom to Vogel
DON VOGEL: Okay. So you're -- you're – do you remember, um, how it kind of -- how the conversation got going specifically, what they were talking about, or just that they --
DALE GRISSOM : … And then they -- I don't remember exactly how it got into Joe Arpaio and her husband. But it came back, what I remember, she says, yeah, my husband wants to get him or wants him to go down or something like that.
DON VOGEL: Okay. You don't remember specifically what she
DALE GRISSOM : No, I
DON VOGEL: said, though.
DALE GRISSOM: No, I don't.
DON VOGEL: But that was the idea of what she said.
DALE GRISSOM: M'hum.
DON VOGEL: Do you remember, was there any any -- did she say it with any emotion, or was it
DALE GRISSOM: Ah, not really, I guess . I don't remember.
DON VOGEL: Okay. And who is her husband.
DALE GRISSOM: Ah, is that Judge Snow?
DON VOGEL: Okay. Um, do you know – have you been following the Arpaio case before this.
DALE GRISSOM: Oh, yeah.
DON VOGEL : How were you -- how did you follow it.
DALE GRISSOM : I followed it right along with everything he did, because I approved of most everything he did. I didn't have any problems.
(Don Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-7] at 13-14.)
DON VOGEL: So she said that -- that her husband wanted Sheriff Arpaio to, and you used some words, go down or something like that, but you don't remember exactly what she said
DALE GRISSOM: I - - I don't.
DON VOGEL: Did - - did she ever tell you where she -- why she believed her husband wanted Judge wanted Joe Arpaio to not do so well?
DALE GRISSOM: It seems like, ah I don't know. It sounded to me like he was telling her everything that was going on, and she just kind of, yeah, well, he needs to go down because he is doing all this stuff, and people don't like him.
DON VOGEL: Did it sound to you like Judge Snow told his wife that he didn't like Joe Arpaio, and he wanted Joe Arpaio to, and I'm using your words, to go down?
DALE GRISSOM: I would think so.
DON VOGEL : Okay.
DALE GRISSOM: I mean
DON VOGEL : But did she ever say, my husband told me he doesn't like Joe, and he wants Joe to go down, or don't you remember that.
DALE GRISSOM: I don't remember. That may have come up, but I don't remember.
DON VOGEL: Okay.
(Don Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-7] at 16.)
DON VOGEL : But you remember she told you that her husband, who was the federal judge, didn't like Mr. Arpaio, and he -- and using your words, he wanted Mr. Arpaio to go down.
DALE GRISSOM: Yeah. And that was something that, how would I say? She didn't say it to me. She was telling my wife this stuff.
(Don Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-7] at 17.)
Scott Grissom to Vogel
Unknown; Transcript not yet available. Per Casey Letter, “[t]he operative part of Scott Grissom's statement is where he remembers hearing, despite the noise in the restaurant, someone saying something to the effect of "I'm going to get him or somebody's going to get him." This occurred while his mother was speaking with an unknown woman. (Casey Letter [ECF 1115] at 11.)
What did Ms. Snow look like?
Karen Grissom to Casey
“The woman was tall, thin, with short hair, and light brown-colored hair.” (Casey Letter [ECF 1115] at 4.)
Karen Grissom to Vogel
KAREN GRISSOM : She is probably about 55, 56 .
DON VOGEL: Okay. About how tall.
KAREN GRISSOM: Oh, she is probably about 5' 9", 5' 10".
DON VOGEL : And is she heavy? Is she thin .
KAREN GRISSOM: She is -- she is thin.
DON VOGEL: Okay. And what color hair .
KAREN GRISSOM: It looked like a -- it wasn't quite blonde, but it was -- it had blonde streaks in it. Sandy blonde or --
DON VOGEL: Was the rest of it lighter, the part that didn't have blonde streaks .
KAREN GRISSOM: Yeah, it was darker.
DON VOGEL: What color would you say the if you had to tell me what color hair she had, what
color hair did she have.
KAREN GRISSOM: Ah, light brown.
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 15-16.)
How long did this exchange last?
Karen Grissom to Vogel
DON VOGEL: And I may have asked you this, and if I did, I apologize. How long was your contact with Ms. Snow that day.
KAREN GRISSOM: Maybe less than 10, 5 minutes
DON VOGEL: That is a long time.
KAREN GRISSOM: Yeah.
DON VOGEL: So she was -- what else did talk
KAREN GRISSOM: We were just - - she would she was just talking about her career, what she did. She taught school for a while . And I told her I was going to school . I finished my bachelor's, and I was working on my masters .
DON VOGEL: Where did she tell you she taught school at.
KAREN GRISSOM: I don't remember.
DON VOGEL: Okay. Do you remember what high school, college, university, grammar school?
KAREN GRISSOM : Um, I don't remember what school it was or what grade it was.
DON VOGEL : Do you remember what subject matter she taught.
KAREN GRISSOM: No.
DON VOGEL: Um, do you remember anything else that she told you about -- during that conversation about her or her life or her family? Or what else did she offer in the conversation?
KAREN GRISSOM: Just, ah, where she went to school, um, and that she came back here and taught school for a while. And I don't -- and who she was married to. And then I recognized the Snow, and then our conversation came up to Joe Arpaio and what she had said, he wanted her out -- wanted him out. He didn't like him. And then we changed the subject, and she had to go, because she had a dog outside waiting, and they were going back home.
DON VOGEL : Okay. Do you remember what she changed the subject to.
KAREN GRISSOM: No, I don't.
(Karen Grissom Interview Transcript [ECF 1117-6] at 27-28.)
